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Post by guesswhoiam on Jul 4, 2014 6:48:45 GMT
In the first episode of the series (The Even Chance), Hornblower (on the Papillon) attacked three French corvettes who were fighting the Indy. However, he did not run down the French color until after they won, despite Mr Bowles' reminder. Such deception allows him to approach the French ships without any hindrance. He only fly the "Ensign" after the French surrendered. Is such deception allowed under the then rules of war? If I understand correctly, people on that era were supposed to take the rules of war seriously, especially the main character who cares about honour and stuff. Was it proper for him to do so? If not, why did he do it and why didn't this tarnish his reputation ?
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Post by HMS Lydia on Jul 5, 2014 2:16:15 GMT
Hi guesswhoiam! First of all, welcome to the forum. You may like to stop by the newbie section and introduce yourself to the gang. Secondly, yes, there were many rules of war at the time, but to fly neutral or friendly colours at the approach of the enemy was considered an acceptable and widely used ruse de guerre. It was also commonly accepted that one's own colours would be hoisted just before the actual engagement started. To be captured in disguise meant being liable to accusation and execution as a spy instead of status of prisoner of war, which is why in episode 1x03 HH makes sure he and his men are in theie own British uniforms when captired by the Spanish. All this considered, while Horatio is certainly an honourable person, he is also someone who puts the good of the service first. Keeping French colours on the Papillon certainly means stretching to breaking point the definition of an acceptable ruse, but it also means saving the ship and the men, and he therefore does it. Conventional hero of black and white morality our brainy Hornblower is certainly not. Lydia
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Post by guesswhoiam on Jul 5, 2014 23:38:38 GMT
@hms Lydia: Forgive me, but somehow I'm not convinced by this Probably it was tolerated to fly the wrong flag before the engagement, but in that episode they keept using the French colors even as they were firing on the French ship. I don't buy the "good of the service" argument either. If someone were to violate the rules of war, of course it would be to their own's side advantage I'm not a fan of black and white morality of conventional heroes, but this seems to be clearly dishonorable - breaking the rules of war (if I understand correctly) to his own (in this case, Britain's) selfish advantage. Is this event in the book? Is there a deeper explanation for Hornblower's decision in this?
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DianeGretnaGreen
Commander
Anxious For Promotion
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Posts: 751
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Post by DianeGretnaGreen on Jul 6, 2014 18:33:19 GMT
HiGuess:
As an FYI, HH did it again in CAPTAIN HORATIO HORNBLOWER the movie starring Gregory Peck.
Welcome Aboard!
Yours Aye,
Diane
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Post by Ensign Sandra on Jul 7, 2014 7:08:30 GMT
Lydia's right. Our Hero plays the rules a bit fast and lose quite often. Ambushing the French shore party and then sneaking up on Le Reve dressed in their clothes is another example (Duchess and the Devil). Personal honor is important to Hornblower, but he never ever forgets that "we are not here to fight them. We're here to defeat them." And then there's the dinner on the Renown where Lt. Buckland keeps the Spanish commandant busy whilst the other lieutenants are preparing the hot shot, which was also Hornblower's idea. And the whole mutiny business in the first place. He takes the long view and he's got a ton of nerve, so he usually gets away with it.
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Post by HMS Lydia on Jul 7, 2014 18:15:40 GMT
I completely agree with the points made by Diana and Sandra. Hornblower is consistently shown as a clever rather than muscular kind of fighter (compare and contrast with Jack Aubrey's proficiency in gunnery and love of engaging the enemy closely). While there definitely were a certain number of honourable practices he is seen flouting, I always thought Hornblower was bent on finding his own way to the good of the service while also following his own inner sense of morality (see for example when he helps his steward desert when he should have been hanged for insubordination). At the same time, he always obeys what the modern mind might term the more 'humane' rules of war, and we never see him be unnecessarily cruel or even ruthless in the taking of human life.
Again in an interesting contrast with Aubrey, while neither man is a flogging captain, Aubrey repeatedly acknowledges that flogging is sometimes the only way of dealing with misbehaving sailors, while Hornblower's distaste for physical punishment includes doubts as to its efficiency.
Lydia
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Post by Nosey's sister on Jul 7, 2014 19:28:10 GMT
In a similar note but acted differently, an anecdote from Hornblower in the West Indies comes to my mind. Well, I hope I remember the book correctly, please feel free to correct me, dear shipmates, also if I get some of the details wrong. I will stay a little vague in order not to spoil it for guesswhoiam in case you've not yet read all the books. Of course, it does not include hoisting a "wrong" flag before action, rather the contrary (which also shows that he does not sacrifice lives unnecessarily, even if it were French lives). In order to save lives and to spare the world from unnecessary fightings, Hornblower tells the commander of a French ship what he thinks a lie. The ship sails off, and no unnessary fights will be fought. Hornblower, however, knowing he had told a lie for the good of the service, gets a little neurotic about it and about having disgraced himself and being no longer a gentleman when the truth comes out. He goes on an on about it, berating himself for having disgraced himself but also knowing that he could not have done anything else in that mment for the best of the service. When it finally comes out that he had not told a lie but that exactly his "lie" had happened meawhile he is rather relieved but (IIRC) he also berates himself again for having this kind of unusual luck that he would not be disgraced at home due to his "lie". Complex, guilt-ridden Hornblower at his best.
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Post by Otter on Jul 8, 2014 19:38:19 GMT
@hms Lydia: Forgive me, but somehow I'm not convinced by this Probably it was tolerated to fly the wrong flag before the engagement, but in that episode they keept using the French colors even as they were firing on the French ship.
...by which time the (remaining) French would have figured it out, so changing the flag would have been moot.
With regards to "tarnishing his reputation," I don't think he had much to lose, being a mere midshipman. Indeed, it may have been because of his lower rank that he could challenge Mr. Bowles (after Bowles reminded him to replace the ensign): "Show me where it is written and I would gladly concede the point." He could get away with that remark, feigning ignorance. Bowles seemed okay with that.
In any case, keeping the French flag flying meant the risk of Pellew pelleting the Papillon. (analysis by alliteration).
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vixie
Midshipman
flirting with the new Laser Vago!
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Post by vixie on Feb 6, 2015 17:56:44 GMT
coming to this thread some six months later.... This was a tactic used widely by British, French and American sailors - a bit sneaky, but a loosely acceptable ruse in battle, especially when captains' had to outwit each other in order to come within distance on the seas. This kind of thing appears in the Naval Chronicle, in POB, and, if I remember correctly, in Mr Midshipman Easy.
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usHHan
Midshipman
Finding my sea legs once more...
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Post by usHHan on Feb 20, 2015 20:14:10 GMT
*wipes tear from eye* Ah, dear shipmates...You don't know how good it does my heart to see so many still coming to Hornblower's defense...
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Post by hmscharity on Apr 10, 2015 18:40:43 GMT
In the aforementioned episode in "West Indies" Hornblower's breach of honor is for far more than the good of the service, but for the good of England and the British Empire he is sworn to defend. Due to his situation, he is the only person who can avert a possible disaster of planetary proportions, he does so and mourns his lost honor, pondering even if his bride will still love him. It is the humanizing aspect of Hornblower that he agonizes over such distinctions.
As a midshipman in "The Even Chance" he stretches the point in the films, he does not in the books. Nonetheless, he is committed to protecting his ship and shipmates before saving the lives of the enemy. Hornblower's - and most British commanders of the era - first priority is the preservation of his crew's lives. A fully-crewed ship is an efficient ship and a difficult enough task in that era without the dangers of combat. If, by practicing some deception, casualties will be minimized and victory achieved, then by all means practice the deception. It's been a standard of war throughout history and one practiced by most successful military commanders.
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Post by Otter on Apr 10, 2015 22:04:40 GMT
If, by practicing some deception, casualties will be minimized and victory achieved, then by all means practice the deception. It's been a standard of war throughout history and one practiced by most successful military commanders.
Makes you wonder what Buckland would have done. Oh wait, you said successful military commanders.
Hey, hmsc, good to see ya!
Otter
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Post by Nosey's sister on Apr 11, 2015 6:10:27 GMT
In the aforementioned episode in "West Indies" Hornblower's breach of honor is for far more than the good of the service, but for the good of England and the British Empire he is sworn to defend. Due to his situation, he is the only person who can avert a possible disaster of planetary proportions, he does so and mourns his lost honor, pondering even if his bride will still love him. It is the humanizing aspect of Hornblower that he agonizes over such distinctions. As a midshipman in "The Even Chance" he stretches the point in the films, he does not in the books. Nonetheless, he is committed to protecting his ship and shipmates before saving the lives of the enemy. Hornblower's - and most British commanders of the era - first priority is the preservation of his crew's lives. A fully-crewed ship is an efficient ship and a difficult enough task in that era without the dangers of combat. If, by practicing some deception, casualties will be minimized and victory achieved, then by all means practice the deception. It's been a standard of war throughout history and one practiced by most successful military commanders. Ehrm, yes, you're right of course. My memory has become a little blurred and dodgy, I'm afraid. I was only so impressed when I read that episode that I still had to mention it in this case. Thanks for the clarification. RL has been too hasty and stressful over the last two years or so which is the only apology I can offer for not being on the height of my knowledge regarding all things HH. By the way, as Otter said: Good to see you, HMSC! Oh, and Otter:
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