vixie
Midshipman
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Post by vixie on May 20, 2014 10:48:53 GMT
This is one of those questions that is never answered *after watching Mutiny and Retribution* and that keeps me riveted when re-watching the series over and over. I thought we could have a discussion, for anyone so inclined, on what you think, as per the series on screen and how it was directed, as many imaginative/logical/speculative opinions as you have welcome!
Was the captain pushed, or did he fall? What were the intentions of the two people in the position to push him, i.e. Hornblower and Kennedy? Was there an understood communication between Hornblower and Sawyer? If so, is it possible that Hornblower over- or under-interpreted Sawyer's meaning and/or sanity? Was anyone actually able to have seen the alleged push? et., etc., etc...... Feel free to open up new questions, post footage from the series, or refer to lines or scenes. IMO the director, whether intentionally or not, left a very loaded question open. If you believe that it is all very clearly cut-and-dried, then do share, too!
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Post by HMS Lydia on May 20, 2014 11:33:08 GMT
YES, YES! Someone is asking this question again. *fangirly jumps around* Sooo….
In my opinion, Sawyer was most definitely pushed. One could make a case for the fact that the court martial would not believe this version of events after Buckland’s accusation, but the atmosphere of guilt, fear and suspicion before this is strong enough to say that no, the good captain did not just trip up.
Then who did it? Three people were on the scene: Hornblower, Kennedy and Wellard. I feel we must exclude Wellard. In the books my money is most definitely on him to have done it, but in the books Wellard was a much more efficient, laudanum-free kinda chap, with a cold edge akin to Horatio’s. In the movies, Welly is drugged to his eyes and out of his wits. It speaks volumes that Hobbes, the most untrusting person this side of Torquemada, does not think he did it, only that he knows who did.
Let’s look at Horatio and Archie then. Horatio definitely had his hands on Sawyer’s back – but given his position, he looks likely to have pulled more than pushed. While Archie was the first to see Sawyer, and the one who backed him to the hatch itself.
My idea is that they did it together. I think it would be very difficult to believe Archie did not see the open hatch given the lighting on deck, and I think one should look at the determined expression on his face and the deliberate steps he takes towards a scared, increasingly confused Sawyer to see he has something on his mind. I think however Horatio was the one who seized the opportunity (perfectly in character) and somehow helped the guy on his way down.
When Sawyer starts to fall Kennedy is grabbing forward with a surprised expression on his face. You could read him as his trying to help him and failing, or his helping Horatio with the push while having misgivings about it.
Horatio’s involvement, I think, cannot be doubted. It’s clear that on the morning of the trial he was going to take responsibility, and his words to Pellew at the end make clear that he considers himself the one who should shoulder the blame, instead of Archie.
However, I don’t think this leaves Archie entirely in the clear. Think back to his confession: ‘I, and I alone, pushed Captain Sawyer down the hold’. Sure, one could make a case that he simply making sure the court gets that Horatio is totally innocent, but I do think it’s a suggestive way of putting it. Also think of what Wellard said: ‘I will not see them hang, either of them’. While again, given Wellard’s drugged state, one could argue that he simply doesn’t know who really did it, the two instances coupled make for an interesting case of shared responsibility.
Certainly, Horatio appears to consider himself the sole one responsible. Then again, Horatio considers himself responsible for the welfare of a girl he doesn’t love because she’s infatuated with him, so his boundaries for personal involvement are vast and blurred.
Lydia
Pellew definitely thinks Horatio alone did it; but then again, when on earth did Pellew ever think poor Archie could do something?
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DianeGretnaGreen
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Post by DianeGretnaGreen on May 20, 2014 15:21:38 GMT
The captain was clearly crazy at least in the movies. It would have be tempting.
Yours Aye,
Diane
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Post by QueueMistressMags on May 20, 2014 18:28:18 GMT
Back here again, are we? ;-)
Sawyer was definitely pushed.
All the visual signs in the films point to Hornblower being the person who did the pushing (Sawyer's memories of the silhouette hanging over him). It is also clear that Archie knows he did it. It's not clear if he saw, or just that he knows Horatio well enough to understand what happened. But I submit that Horatio would not have been so distraught at Archie's sacrifice of his personal honor if he (Horatio) had not done it. The ending of the series makes no sense if Hornblower didn't push Sawyer. I feel like this series is the closest Horatio is portrayed as Forester wrote him personality-wise. He has that darkness that Book!Hornblower has.
In the book, as it is written from Bush's point of view, we don't know what Hornblower was thinking. It was not a pre-planned thing; someone took advantage of a situation that was suddenly presented. Hornblower is shown quite clearly as the only officer who had the quick thinking and leadership ability to take advantage of that situation. And I think we can trust Bush as a narrator. Well, he's not the narrator, but we can trust his point of view.
In both the film and the movie, it was purposely left vague and we are not meant to know for sure, but we can infer quite a bit IMO.
I know a lot of people who love the Hornblower character don't like to think he did it, but I submit it was a heroic action and saved the ship. Hornblower's leadership qualities are a little...different, but they are leadership qualities nonetheless.
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vixie
Midshipman
flirting with the new Laser Vago!
Posts: 29
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Post by vixie on May 20, 2014 22:01:30 GMT
I find the series director definitely presents an engaging reading of the book version, and the comments here, such as Archie's expression and the lines of his confession and those of Wellard also throw up some questions for the audience. Yes, I agree that Horatio's book character comes out perhaps best in these two episodes of the series, and quite appreciably so. Also, it was imperative that the audience was never actually told unequivocally who was responsible, and that, I think is a key. They were all thinking the same thing. They all had the same intention, but as a group they had not yet worked out how it was to be realised before they were interrupted by the search and event overtook them.
We never really see anyone touch Sayer's person. Horatio's hand is closest to him, but in the wrong kind of attitude for pushing. Archie's hands are lower and off-screen. Wellard was too far away to have touched Sawyer, so can be ruled out. It is possible that the same thought occurred to Horatio and Archie at the same time and with the same opportunity facing them, but neither had time to act on this intent as Sawyer tripped and lost his balance, falling before either of them could react entirely. As both knew the intentions of themselves and each other, they either each assumed that the other had pushed the captain, thus their tenacity at defending the other at the court-martial, or they knew that one of them would have to take the blame after Buckland's outburst.
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Post by HMS Lydia on May 21, 2014 1:06:29 GMT
I completely think pushing Sawyer down the hold is in Horatio's character. I think he is an interesting study in someone perfectly suited to his job, but not much else. His treatment of Maria, his betrayals of Barbara, his incapability of showing friendship to Bush properly, all speak of a walled-up character with little openness to the rest of the world and even smaller talent to keep relationships, be they friendly or romantic, up. Which makes him even more interesting,imho Lydia
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vixie
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Post by vixie on May 21, 2014 10:05:10 GMT
I agree, Lydia! There is little room in his character for any real humanity, but much for calculated decisions. This would cause internal conflict in most characters, but in Horatio, we have to consider whether it is a good thing, and whether it makes him always a good leader.
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DianeGretnaGreen
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Post by DianeGretnaGreen on May 21, 2014 15:28:22 GMT
Question here: If Pellew had had an opportunity, what would HE have done?
Yours Aye,
Diane
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vixie
Midshipman
flirting with the new Laser Vago!
Posts: 29
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Post by vixie on May 22, 2014 9:29:52 GMT
Both in the books and in the screen series I can see Pellew having such a cold determination about him at times, and I think that this is one of the qualities that Hornblower tires to emulate to survive as a midshipman
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Post by HMS Lydia on May 22, 2014 11:04:07 GMT
I think Pellew is a lot more fiery than Hornblower. I don't doubt he can see the reasons of his action and approves of it (that final speech about the good of the service) but I think if he had done it he might have been more direct about it, and possibly get caught.
Lydia
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Post by Sharpiefan on May 26, 2014 19:41:25 GMT
Well, unlike our esteemed friend @hms Lydia I still firmly believe that he was not pushed but that in his delusional state, Sawyer was stepping backwards away from the threat that he perceived Hornblower to be, and caught his foot on the coaming (raised lip) of the open hatchway and fell that way.
Hornblower's hand is in the wrong place and shape (can't think of a better word) to have pushed him - it looks to me more as though he's reaching vainly to grasp hold of him to stop him falling, which (I think) fits more with his character as we know it.
SF
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Post by shipoftheline on May 26, 2014 22:58:51 GMT
I'm afraid I am with Sharpie as well, the Captain fell on his own. Both Horatio and Archie seemed to be reaching trying to prevent the fall and were not physically in the right position to push him. I think the shadow Captain Sawyer sees is Horatio bending over him later on as he is laying on the floor after the fall.
I believe Horatio's guilt is more due to the fact that something bad happened, he was not able to foresee or prevent it and therefore it must be his fault. He understands the position he is in because there are no other witnesses and when Archie confesses, he also understands the magnitude of the sacrifice his friend is making.
If Horatio had wanted to off the Captain, he could have done it when Sawyer gave him the loaded gun and asked him to shoot him.
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LizMc
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Post by LizMc on May 26, 2014 23:50:52 GMT
I feel that Sawyer wasn't pushed, but Kennedy knew he would fall down the hatch as he backed away from him and continued towards him.......as for what would Pellew do in a similar situation, I think Pellew wouldn't hesitate to eliminate a threat to the ship....his commemts about Kennedy to hornblower after the trial bare that out, in my opinion......
Cheers
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Post by HMS Lydia on May 27, 2014 0:04:31 GMT
I love how fifteen years on we still have all these ideas about it! Ship, I am afraid I will have to disagree in that I think Horatio would not shoot Sawyer because then he'd be certain to hang...whereas pushing him down the hatch is certainly a 'calculated risk' as Pellew puts it, he has a chance of making it look like an accident.
Liz, I completely agree Kennedy must have seen the open hatch and still backed him there.
Lydia
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Post by shipoftheline on May 27, 2014 0:20:59 GMT
Ship, I am afraid I will have to disagree in that I think Horatio would not shoot Sawyer because then he'd be certain to hang Unlike the position he found himself in when the Captain fell down the hatch?
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