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Post by QueueMistressMags on May 27, 2014 13:55:25 GMT
But it could be passed off as an accident, whereas shooting him is a little more purposeful! And in the book, that's exactly what happened--the court martial didn't want it on the record that Sawyer had gone insane, so they passed it off as an accident, though they had their suspicions.
I still think the plot of the film doesn't make sense if Horatio didn't push Sawyer. And I am certain in the book we are meant to think Hornblower pushed Sawyer.
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Post by Ensign Sandra on May 27, 2014 17:02:17 GMT
Archie either knows Horatio did or can't be sure that he didn't. Kennedy wouldn't have done it purposefully himself because that isn't the way he thinks. Not that he's too good of a soul or anything; just that that kind of coldly calculated risk-taking isn't his forte. Of course, if the screen-writers hadn't need a heroic death for him, the thing would have played out as it did in the book.
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Post by HMS Lydia on May 27, 2014 18:41:18 GMT
Ship, I think I agree with Queue here, pushing him down meant a chance of passing it off as an accident, and indeed Whiting of the marines easily eats it up. The captain was getting older and somewhat confused.
Queue, do you really think Hornblower did it in the book? I always wondered if it had not been Wellard and Horatio had covered it up...
Lydia
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Post by QueueMistressMags on May 28, 2014 2:52:59 GMT
Yes, I think he did it in the book. Reading the story from Bush's point of view--the very plain, innocent, straightforward point of view of Bush, who even Sawyer recognizes is without guile, but the reader understands he is far from stupid--one sees that Hornblower is the only one of the officers capable of such an act. Like I wrote above, it was a situation that suddenly presented an opportunity and Hornblower was the only officer with the wit to recognize the opportunity and the cold-bloodedness to take advantage of it. I really don't think Wellard did it, but Wellard knew and kept the secret. It is a lot of reading between the lines--it's not said straight out.
I do think the movie was more convoluted and allows for more speculation, but I still think the clues point towards Horatio as the culprit.
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vixie
Midshipman
flirting with the new Laser Vago!
Posts: 29
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Post by vixie on May 29, 2014 10:38:06 GMT
The movie did play up on a number of things surrounding this in a different way from the book, and I liked it, too. The impression we get of the movie Horatio is one of a young man who undertakes his duty for the good of the service, does not think openly about his own advancement, and proves a very loyal friend to those close to him. This character is unlikely to have pushed Sawyer, but seems torn at the moment because he sees the opportunity, and guilt-ridden because the four lieutenants have just been interrupted in plotting something of the sort. Kennedy sees the opportunity and acts on it - whether he pushes or not, he does extend his hand and knows Sawyer will back into the open hold. Sawyer would not stand for being bodily touched and they know it. Also in play is the morale and form of a fighting ship, which would be compromised with the visibility of an inept captain out of his mind, and, of course, the memory of one of "Nelson's own."
In the end, Archie is content to give his last breath for Horatio, knowing what they had both planned and were both guilty of - the intent; and Pellew exonerates what he knows Horatio and Archie, and perhaps the other two, were thinking and had intended.
At any rate, I think the movie does this well - and keeps us discussing it over again!
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DianeGretnaGreen
Commander
Anxious For Promotion
Gathers Heather for Dr. Syn (alias The Scarecrow)
Posts: 751
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Post by DianeGretnaGreen on May 29, 2014 15:03:25 GMT
Question for anyone--what would you have done?
Yours Aye,
Diane
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Post by Otter on May 29, 2014 18:34:07 GMT
Question for anyone--what would you have done? Yours Aye, Diane
Well, let's see... if I'm Hornblower and I have a deranged Captain intent on hanging me from the yardarm if he had the proof, which he has now as I'm caught conspiring with fellow crew-mates, who would also hang. .. that, and knowing the whole ship would be better off with me and my epic brain and genius problem-solving skills, not to mention my miraculous string of luck...
...PUSH!
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Post by shipoftheline on May 29, 2014 20:29:10 GMT
I'm with you Otter... push or trip him. In the movie, I still think the Captain fell. I don't think Horatio pushed him, specially when there is a very good chance Archie could get shot in the process. It's been a while since I read the book, but I always thought Wellard pushed him. He was a different character in the book, I thought he had a bit more initiative. Horatio either suspected it or knew having witnessed it, but thought it was for the good of the service and not something worth bringing up. Edit: Hey, wouldn't it be fun to do a super slow-motion watch of that scene at a con? Pretty similar to the big screen snot-debate scene in Toronto. It was snot!!
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Post by HMS Lydia on May 30, 2014 0:32:29 GMT
Stupid hothead that I am, I would probably exploded at him a lot earlier when he was dragging Wellard over the coals. Ship, glad we agree on something Lydia
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DianeGretnaGreen
Commander
Anxious For Promotion
Gathers Heather for Dr. Syn (alias The Scarecrow)
Posts: 751
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Post by DianeGretnaGreen on May 30, 2014 15:56:51 GMT
I like a scenario of just letting him fall backwards. PRETENDING to try and catch him.
How does one define 'a conspiracy' at least for 18th Century purposes?
Yours Aye,
Diane
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HMSCody
Lieutenant
Happy to be of service, as ever.
Posts: 427
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Post by HMSCody on May 30, 2014 19:38:00 GMT
I've done the freeze-frame thing. Horatio's hands are palms-up, and in a really funky position for somebody who was trying to push somebody. He might have been authentically trying to catch the Captain but was too far away to be able to do more than just reach, and cast a shadow.
I think Captain Sawyer fell, all by his lonesome. Wellard was too hopped up on laudanum to know what really happened and was very suggestible as a result. Then Hobbs just filled the space in Wellard's cranium with what he wanted to be true, and Bob's your uncle, there's a witness to a pushing.
HMSCody
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Post by shipoftheline on May 30, 2014 20:21:41 GMT
LOL!I watched the scene frame by frame last night too. I will get some screen caps this weekend to post. There is no way Horatio could have pushed Sawyer given where he was standing on the edge of the hatch. The way Sawyer fell, someone would have to have pushed him from the front, where Archie was standing. It looks like when Horatio's hands actually touch Sawyer, Sawyer is already mid air on his way down. If anyone would have pushed him, it would have been Archie. You'd think I have nothing better to do.
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Post by shipoftheline on May 31, 2014 4:02:18 GMT
Here are the screen caps. Please bear with me. Here we have Captain Looney Tunes... Wellard hiding in the dark.... Horatio not far... Captain steps back... Archie realizes what's about to happen... Captain takes another step... Down he goes... Horatio reacts... Tries to catch him... Even poor laudanum laden Wellard tries to prevent the fall... But it is too late... Horatio almost falls in... And as Sawyer comes to briefly, he spots the infamous shadow. I think Sawyer fell. One thing I noticed re-watching the scene is how instinctive Horatio's reaction seems to be, reaching out to try to prevent the captain from falling.
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ruizu
Lubber
They told me I was going to lose the fight
Posts: 7
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Post by ruizu on May 31, 2014 5:25:58 GMT
I've watched and re-watched the scene over and over, and I can only make out that Sawyer hadn't noticed where he was going and tripped over backwards. It didn't seem to me that anyone had forcefully pushed him. Truthfully I had a hard time figuring out what was going on, because of the camera angles and it all happened so quickly, but that is the impression I get from watching the scene.
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Post by Phizz on Jun 2, 2014 16:54:22 GMT
I think that in the movie, Capt. Sawyer backs up and trips and falls with the Lts trying to catch him. In the book, I got the distinct impression that it was Wellard who pushed him and Hornblower was covering for him. But they took such liberties with that book, it doesn't surprise me. I really wish they had made the attack on Ft. Samana more true to the book to show off how brilliant Hornblower's plan was. I literally cringe every time I see the men charging up and getting shot at as I know that's not how it happened in the book. But, I guess the Andrews thought it would play better on TV.
~Phizz
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