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Post by WinterMoon on Jun 4, 2014 11:32:53 GMT
I say he fell, and that the Liutenants didn't lure him into a trap either. The way I see it, the whole miserable pickle of this story-arc is that they're in trouble for something they didn't do. They live in a time where sea captains have absolute power, and unfortunately the person in absolute power over them is muy loco la cabeza. Since they can't prove their innocence, it's not very likely they will all survive their arrival in Kingston. Someone will be charged with mutiny, and die, and it will be someone we like and root for. It's just an occupational hazard of the time and place they live in. There really is no way out of this one, and that's the tragedy and injustice that drives the story. Then Archie gets shot. He's seriously wounded, and in all respects sentenced to death already. He decides that the best possible outcome is already given. He can't survive anyway, so he's got to try to save his friends. Sure, his post-script is not going to be very pretty, and his family will be a little bit disgraced and may have to change their name and emigrate to Canada, but all that is worth it to save the life of an innocent man who he admires and cares about. So he lies to the court, who have already decided what to believe, and tells them exactly what they want to hear. And so the short and difficult life of Archie Kennedy comes to its ironic end. A hero dies as a traitor, and the truth will never be known. If that's not a tragedy worthy of Shakespeare, then I don't know what is.
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HMSCody
Lieutenant
Happy to be of service, as ever.
Posts: 427
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Post by HMSCody on Jun 4, 2014 13:38:39 GMT
Wintermoon, that's an excellent analysis. For me, at least, you've hit the nail on the head. It's one of the oldest conundrums of humankind -- nobody's guilty, but somebody's going to pay for the event, and we can't take our eyes off of the inexorable march toward the conclusion.
HMSCody
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Post by shipoftheline on Jun 4, 2014 16:11:43 GMT
Exactly! They are guilty of something they didn't do but were planning on doing, and that is why Horatio feels Archie's sacrifice so deeply.
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Post by Nosey's sister on Jun 5, 2014 15:49:53 GMT
WinterMoon, you nailed down my own feelings so well, I salute you! To be honest, when at first everyone was charging someone or other with guilt I was wondering how I could explain my feelings - and I failed and stayed quiet. I am glad to see that others think the same way, and though it's a story arc wonderfully acted by everyone, I still like these two films the lest. Why? Probably because I've had more than enough of my share of injustice and I rather prefer some happier story-lines. (Shallow, I know )
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Post by HMS Lydia on Jun 7, 2014 15:41:38 GMT
Hey guys! looks like in the time I have been away lots of interesting things have been going on Thanks ship for the excellent play by play recap! Here's the rub for me: I completely take everyone's points about the awkwardness of everyone's position respective to actually pushing Sawyer, the tragedy if no one actually did anything, etc. Howver, my biggest objection to this interpretation of the storyline is that if nobody pushed/otherwise caused Sawyer to fall, the way the story is told does not make much sense at all. Yes, it would be tragic if you were accused of something you did not do and someone had to take the fall for it to spare you. But the way things stand at the end of the trial, this is not what is at stake. It is amply shown that Buckland cannot possibly prove Horatio did it, and all other witnesses are dead or dying. Pellew, who has clearly come around to Horatio's thinking about the opportunity of Sawyer's dying at this point, is clearly ready to put it to Horatio's honour. And this is the point: when it appears he must make a statement of fact about it, Horatio looks troubled and put on the spot. It doesn't matter if he really wished for Sawyer to die: he could still go ahead and serenely say that he did not push him, because he didn't. As for scapegoats for the general failure, it's clear as well that Pellew is heading towards making Buckland one. Horatio can tell the truth, if the truth is harmless, and the rest will unfold. But Horatio can't tell the truth; not because he won't be believed but because the truth leaves him far from innocent. When at the end Pellew goes on and on about Archie taking a calculated risk for the good of the country, Horatio doesn't argue 'but Sawyer fell'; he argues 'do you really think he did it'. From the way he phrases it, the object of the doubt is not the action but the agent. And if Sawyer had truly fallen, wouldn't Wellard's life had been easier as well: to Hobbes' insistent questioning he could have replied firmly that nobody pushed the captain, he fell. But he doesn't: he says 'I won't see them hang, either of them', which implies that he considers either Hornblower or Kennedy, or both, responsible. But Wellard was drugged and cannot be considered an entirely reliable witness; fair. But when we have Wellard of this opinion, Pellew's opinion unchallenged by Horatio, and Horatio himself looking like he's being dragged over hot coals when confronted with having to swear he did not push the captain, and Archie's suggestive 'I, and I ALONE pushed Captain Sawyer down the hold' I think there is far too much smoke for no fire to be burning somewhere. Well. Just an opinion. Lydia
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vixie
Midshipman
flirting with the new Laser Vago!
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Post by vixie on Jun 9, 2014 9:10:56 GMT
Well observed, HMS Lydia!
I think perhaps not enough of the foregoing scenes have been taken into account, particularly the confrontation between Horatio and Sawyer the night on the quarterdeck. Though they were in disagreement, there was an understanding passed between the two of them, however tenuous, and, there having been no witnesses, this perceived understanding on Sawyer's part plays itself out in several subsequent scenes, including threatening Horatio with the pistol before being relieved of his captaincy, the goading of Buckland, and the confrontation with the razor blade. Sawyer seems a lot more calculating than much of his mad antics might imply. However, he has lost sight of what is best for his ship in pitting his lieutenants against each other in his assessment of their capabilities.
Also along this line is the captain's person. Familiarity resulting in physical contact of any kind was not even in Hobbe's reach, much less the barber. It would not be necessary for him to be pushed physically, but merely threatened with bodily contact - the recoil from the grabbing motion of both Archie's and Horatio's arms here, as well as their advances was enough for him to be figuratively pushed, or coerced backward into the hold. In this way, he was pushed.
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usHHan
Midshipman
Finding my sea legs once more...
Posts: 66
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Post by usHHan on Jan 23, 2016 6:12:11 GMT
Long time, no see, shipmates! I'm a proponent of the "The Whole Point of Lieutenant Hornblower (upon which Mutiny and Retribution is based) Was to Make the Reader Unsure of Exactly What Hornblower Was Capable Of" camp, so I don't seek to solve the whole "Who Pushed Sawyer" issue. Regarding the movie, I think the only thing that you can say with any absolute certainty is that Archie didn't do it. There are a metric ton of reasons for this conclusion, all of which have been covered in one form or another over the years (and which I'm happy to rehash for those who disagree). Suffice it to say, that is as far as I'm willing to commit to anything regarding how the Captain Came To Fall Down the Hold. However, as I enjoy throwing fuel on the fire, here's something to ponder for those interested in coming up with an absolute answer to the Sawyer-pushing question: CSF was famous for tweaking his stories as he added to the series. Discrepancies abound in the books. In 1940, he wrote a Hornblower short story called, "Hornblower and the Hand of Destiny." I will summarize: a young Lt. Hornblower finds himself on an unhappy ship under a despotic captain surrounded by ineffectual superior officers and is presented with an opportunity to do something about it. (Sound familiar?) Only, in "Hand of Destiny," CSF tells you exactly how things go down. Seeing as the novel Lieutenant Hornblower didn't come along until 1952, my theory is that Forester came up with the plot for the short story and then, after cogitating on it for a few years, decided that it would make a far more interesting character study (and, therefore, novel) if the audience was *not* clued into how (or even if) Hornblower was involved. It could be argued that the answer to "Who pushed Sawyer?" has been staring us in the face through "Hand of Destiny" all along. Then again, given CSF's track record for switching things up...
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HMSCody
Lieutenant
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Post by HMSCody on Jan 25, 2016 13:42:19 GMT
I don't think I've read that, usHHfan. This could open a whole new level of discussion regarding The Issue. [goes to look for book online]
HMSCody
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usHHan
Midshipman
Finding my sea legs once more...
Posts: 66
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Post by usHHan on Jan 25, 2016 15:27:31 GMT
I don't think I've read that, usHHfan. This could open a whole new level of discussion regarding The Issue. [goes to look for book online]
HMSCody
If you have trouble finding it, let me know. I've got it in .pdf format and would be happy to share!
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Post by Sharpiefan on Jan 25, 2016 17:42:28 GMT
I still think the Captain down the hatch was an accident... Nobody mentioned anything about him being pushed until they were in the courtroom when Buckland said it... and he wasn't there to witness it.
SF
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LizMc
Lieutenant
There is nothing a good pint can't fix
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Post by LizMc on Jan 25, 2016 23:42:56 GMT
Personally, I don't think he was pushed, but Archie advanced towards him, making him retreat, knowing the open hatch was there.....so, Archie taking the blame was entirely appropriate....
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Post by Phizz on Jan 26, 2016 1:22:09 GMT
Personally, I don't think he was pushed, but Archie advanced towards him, making him retreat, knowing the open hatch was there.....so, Archie taking the blame was entirely appropriate.... I have to agree with you. But, book Horatio was more suspect in my book. ~Phizz
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HMS Lozzy
Midshipman
Has sailed 5 boats and counting!
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Post by HMS Lozzy on Jan 27, 2016 11:27:36 GMT
It was sciences' fault! lol Captain Sawyer suffered a bout of vertigo as he stepped back, lost his balance, then gravitational forces took over. lol
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DianeGretnaGreen
Commander
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Post by DianeGretnaGreen on Jan 28, 2016 21:32:24 GMT
I'd like to push him!
Yours Aye,
Diane
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Post by WinterMoon on Jan 29, 2016 16:29:43 GMT
Wouldn't we all, Diane?
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