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Post by shipoftheline on Oct 22, 2017 20:52:45 GMT
There were many of us here and the old A&E discussion boards back in the day. Not as much interest these days since there are no new movies, but we've made friendships and some of us still hang out here and mostly in Facebook.
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Post by QueueMistressMags on Nov 10, 2017 21:18:33 GMT
Hi all, my first ever post on here, yay! I was just wondering, as I have regrettably not read much of the Hornblower books, who got the blame in the books in Court for 'pushing' Sawyer? As I am aware Archie is a TV character only. Cheers! If memory serves, no one did--the court martial had its suspicions, but they decided to let it go for the sake of Captain Sawyer's family, not wanting it to get around he was mad. Welcome, cptrachel, and do read the books! Lt. Hornblower is written from Bush's point of view and is a lot of fun in that way.
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Post by cptrachel on Nov 11, 2017 23:09:29 GMT
Hi QueueMistressMags,
thanks for that! I am almost finished Lieutenant Hornblower now, love reading from Bush's POV!
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pj
Lubber
Posts: 1
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Post by pj on Nov 28, 2017 22:43:05 GMT
Oh hooray, people are discussing this somewhere! I only watched the miniseries just recently, and I might as well warn you at once that I haven't read the novels :-)
On basis of the miniseries only and particularly the way Hornblower's character is portrayed in it, I'd say only two possibilities make any sense to me: that it was Archie who gave Captain Sawyer a push, or that neither Horatio nor Archie did it but the Captain simply fell, retreating from the two of them, who were if anything trying to stop him falling. Had it been Horatio downright pushing the Captain down the hatch, I just can't see him behaving the way he did afterwards.
If it was Archie, he no doubt simply seized the opportunity, taking a "calculated risk". Knowing this and the circumstances, Horatio was not going to turn in his best friend, and this went double after said best friend was mortally wounded in battle and was lying there dying while the court martial was taking place. (The fact that Captain Sawyer seems to remember someone pushing him speaks for this option, as I think does Hobb's reaction to Hornblower and behavior after the Captain's death.)
If neither of them had pushed the Captain but they had inadvertedly caused his fall by their behaviour, Horatio no doubt felt some degree of guilt - not to mention responsibility - for this, whatever the circumstances.
In either case, it was pretty clear to me after Horatio's bedside chat with Archie (the one where A asks H what he's going to say and H refuses to "speculate") that if asked, he intended to say that it had been himself who had pushed the Captain. (Looking back at the show, that's exactly the sort of thing he had been doing all along in such situations.) Archie knew this perfectly well and so arranged himself to appear as witness, taking full responsibility for the incident.
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Post by barbara on Jul 13, 2020 22:12:18 GMT
Hornblower was a slave to the truth in the books. The following refers to the books only - I haven't seen the films yet After he was captured by the Spanish for several months, with permission from his captor he led a perilous mission in a fishing boat to rescue some Spanish sailors who had foundered on the rocks. He managed to rescue 3 Spaniards, but in doing so he lost control of the boat which was pulled out to sea, and was rescued by a British frigate. Not only did Hornblower demand that the 3 now-prisoners be set free, he also insisted on being returned to the Spanish shore, since he had given his word that he would not try to escape. Months later, the Spanish release him in gratitude. Would this Hornblower lie about not being responsible for pushing Sawyer to his doom? However, he would willing lie to protect the honour of another mistreated by Sawyer. "Archie" was not featured in the books, so the principle suspect is surely Wellard. Wellard was pushed beyond endurance by Captain Sawyer's cruel and unfair punishments - he must have felt that he had nothing to lose by pushing Sawyer. Another important point that I haven't seen mentioned - nobody knew that pushing Sawyer would finish him off! If Sawyer had survived with his sanity, he would surely have punished the culprit with all his might. Hornblower was too clever and too rational to risk injuring Sawyer, when there was a chance that Sawyer himself would witness the act, and use his powers as Captain to break Hornblower completely. Wellard had absolutely nothing left to lose - Sawyer was driving him to death with his insane punishments - and he was frightened and crazy enough to do the deed. Hornblower witnessed the act, but knew that Sawyer had absolutely deserved what happened, and resolved to keep his secret no matter what happened afterwards. Every time Hornblower is asked about the event, rather than an honest denial of knowing what happened, an complete absence of emotions fall onto his face, as he mechanically states what he feels honour-bound to say. Read "Lieutenant Hornblower" and see if you agree
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Post by QueueMistressMags on Jul 15, 2020 14:16:57 GMT
Hi barbara, and welcome! You make a good argument, but I think we have to read between the lines on this a little bit. Forester purposely set up the story to be ambiguous, and leave it up to the reader to make their own decision--and thus you see the continuing discussion we've all had about it over the years! The filmmakers also did a really good job of it. But both Forester and the filmmakers left a lot of clues, in my opinion, to lead us to a certain conclusion: that Hornblower pushed Sawyer. Since you haven't seen the films (and they are really good and well-done), I'll talk about the book. Note that it is the only one of the Hornblower books not written from Hornblower's point of view. I think that is purposeful. Bush is not a deep thinker, though he is far from stupid. He's not going to put it together, but he reports the facts as they appear to him. Forester always describes Bush as having an "honest face." So I think in general we can trust his version of events. However, we are getting his point of view and not Hornblower's. Hornblower is shown, from Bush's point of view, though the reader must infer it from his description of the events, as being one step ahead of all the other officers. He is quicker and smarter. I also feel that he is shown as the only one with the wit to take advantage of a situation that presented itself. Hornblower certainly didn't plan to push Sawyer into the hold, but he may have been thinking to himself about how to remove Sawyer from command. When a situation presented itself, he didn't hesitate to take the action he thought necessary to save the ship. It's not simple reactionary personal hatred or revenge: it's an instantly calculated and cold-blooded action to save the ship. I think it's important to realize that: it's not a personal vendetta. It's for the sake of the ship. Remember Hornblower is a mathematical genius and I'm sure he was able to calculate the ramifications of his action and he took it. It's not something Bush would have been able to think of doing, nor any of the others. Wellard, as you pointed out, may have done it from desperation or hatred, but I still think Hornblower did it, did it on purpose, and did it cold-bloodedly and dispassionately. Readers who love Hornblower as a character, and I am one of them, are hesitant to ascribe any actions to him that they consider unheroic. Hornblower is absolutely a heroic character, but Forester wasn't shy about showing him at his worst (cheating on first Maria and then Barbara) or bending the rules to best handle a situation. An instance that springs to mind is telling Doughty to desert to an American ship to save his life. Forester is relentlessly unsentimental about his creation. Hornblower is far from perfect as a man--though much closer to it as an officer. I also think Hornblower had a pretty strong streak of self-preservation. He's not going to admit to pushing Captain Sawyer unless he absolutely had to. Archie made that sacrifice in the movies so that Hornblower didn't have to. But in the book, it was even easier--the courtmartial didn't look at it too deeply because they wanted to preserve Captain Sawyer's public reputation. If they had pushed the inquiry, Sawyer's madness would have become public, and they didn't want that. I maintain that neither the book nor the movie makes any sense unless Hornblower pushed Sawyer. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. But you will have a lot of the folks on this forum, past and present, who agree with you and not with me!
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ChaplainSirPeter
Lubber
Faithfully serving His Britannic Majesty's Royal Navy with God's Word and Sacraments.
Posts: 2
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Post by ChaplainSirPeter on Jan 13, 2022 22:47:00 GMT
If I may continue the conversation with a bit of theory: after some thought, I wonder if there may have been an alternative course of events that would have been favourable to our protagonists in this particular story. If the Lieutenants Hornblower, Bush, Buckland, and Kennedy had only quickly agreed that if the moment presented itself, they would take action, they could have waited until the ship ran aground. In my estimations, the situation would have carried itself pretty much the same: Cpt. Sawyer would have insisted to attack the fort leading them to run aground, at which time it would be clear to everyone present that the Captain was giving incoherent orders that directly endangered the entire ship. Following the same pattern, he would have threatened Hornblower as he demanded the doctor to pronounce the Captain unfit to command, and we know how this ends. However, the huge difference is that there was never any pushing/falling incident! The court-martial would have then revolved around this one moment when the Captain was directly endangering the ship and the men on board, and the doctor is still on record declaring the Captain unfit. They could still cite all the signs of irrational behavior prior, but again, there would be no incident that would implicate the Lieutenants in direct action against the captain's life; the act of mutiny would have been taken solely in a moment for the safety of the entire ship. What do you think? Would this be feasible? Of course, it's possible that it may not have changed anything since the court martial wasn't keen on condemning a national hero. What do you think would have happened if Captain Sawyer had not been pushed/fallen?
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Post by QueueMistressMags on Jan 24, 2022 22:01:00 GMT
Well, yes, that's why Hornblower and Kennedy were trying to convince the doctor to declare the Captain mad. They eventually brought Bush to their side, and probably could have persuaded Buckland easily enough. But the doctor (and Hobbs as well) served under Captain Sawyer at his most heroic, and had a lot of loyalty to him, and they refused to go along. If they had acted and stuck together, they could have got the ship back to land with Captain Sawyer safely confined. But in some ways, considering how people with mental problems were treated in those days, the Captain's death was heroic and what he would have wanted and what his loyalists would have wanted for him (if that makes sense). Of course, the book sort of sputters to a stop and doesn't have the dramatic courtmartial like the film--and I think they were going for maximum drama there. Also giving the fans what they wanted (more Archie) and fulfilling the Forester estate's demands (no more Archie), little knowing the fury that the fans would have over Archie's "loss of honor" though everyone important (that is, Horatio and Pellew) knew what happened. I like both the book and movie versions, btw.
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usHHan
Midshipman
Finding my sea legs once more...
Posts: 66
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Post by usHHan on May 24, 2022 21:50:25 GMT
If I may continue the conversation with a bit of theory: after some thought, I wonder if there may have been an alternative course of events that would have been favourable to our protagonists in this particular story. If the Lieutenants Hornblower, Bush, Buckland, and Kennedy had only quickly agreed that if the moment presented itself, they would take action, they could have waited until the ship ran aground. In my estimations, the situation would have carried itself pretty much the same: Cpt. Sawyer would have insisted to attack the fort leading them to run aground, at which time it would be clear to everyone present that the Captain was giving incoherent orders that directly endangered the entire ship. Following the same pattern, he would have threatened Hornblower as he demanded the doctor to pronounce the Captain unfit to command, and we know how this ends. However, the huge difference is that there was never any pushing/falling incident! The court-martial would have then revolved around this one moment when the Captain was directly endangering the ship and the men on board, and the doctor is still on record declaring the Captain unfit. They could still cite all the signs of irrational behavior prior, but again, there would be no incident that would implicate the Lieutenants in direct action against the captain's life; the act of mutiny would have been taken solely in a moment for the safety of the entire ship. What do you think? Would this be feasible? Of course, it's possible that it may not have changed anything since the court martial wasn't keen on condemning a national hero. What do you think would have happened if Captain Sawyer had not been pushed/fallen? While I agree with you that it would have done the job of getting rid of Sawyer and preserving our beloved lieutenants' reputations intact, ridding the story of the "Who pushed Sawyer" incident negates the very purpose of the story: to force readers to decide for themselves how far Hornblower would go. Is he too dutiful/honorable/compassionate to even consider such an act? Or, is his sense of duty such that it would drive him to do anything for the good of the service? And, if he isn't capable of being the actual offender, is his integrity such that it would allow him to cover for someone who is when he believes their judgement to be sound? (Frankly, I'm enough of a fan of Hornblower that I'm content to be satisfied with any of these conclusions. He loses no points in my world for either action. Ha-h'm...)
The main flaw in your theory to me is the lieutenants agreeing "that if the moment presented itself, they would take action" and then waiting for the ship to run aground. First, I would submit to you that Sawyer backing up to an open grating was that moment. (Someone seemed to think so, at least, assuming that gravity wasn't the culprit...) Secondly, it was their very proximity to the possibility of action that drove them to contemplate mutiny at that moment. As such, allowing Renown to be recklessly sailed into Samana Bay by a madman as a "safer" option to their dilemma would have been anathema to the men whose duty it was to preserve the ship and her crew and successfully carry out their mission. In other words, they may not have been driven to conspire in the first place if they hadn't been concerned about the very real dangers of Sawyer commanding a ship of the line in action. Whether Hornblower had the intestinal fortitude to commit mutiny by pushing his insane captain down the hold might be in question, but I'm fairly confident that asking him to sacrifice the ship and her men just so a court martial might be a little less uncomfortable would be a step too far for him.
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