DianeGretnaGreen
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Gathers Heather for Dr. Syn (alias The Scarecrow)
Posts: 751
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Post by DianeGretnaGreen on Feb 8, 2016 16:41:26 GMT
Heh! Even Alfred Hitchcock wants to know!! He asked if they were pushed or did they jump? [This came from an epilogue of an old Hitchcock tv episode entitled 'Sybilla'].
Yours Aye,
Diane
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Post by victory on May 27, 2016 14:57:14 GMT
Using the book as my source I have no doubt that Hornblower pushed the Captain. You must remember Hornblower is all about success of the mission and victory the Empire. He always plays the odds and he knew that left unchecked the Captain would "destroy" the ship and take the officers with it. This would hurt the country the service and Hornblower's goals. Once Hornblower realized the most likely action to result in success he committed himself completely no matter what the risk. Pushing the Captain was the answer and the best thing he could do at that moment for the Navy and for England. No one else on board would have had. I've been a Hornblower fan for more that 40 years and it's great to know others out there.
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Post by shipoftheline on May 28, 2016 1:04:50 GMT
Welcome aboard victory! There are plenty of Hornblower fans around, even if we are a bit scattered around in different online places at the moment.
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DianeGretnaGreen
Commander
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Gathers Heather for Dr. Syn (alias The Scarecrow)
Posts: 751
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Post by DianeGretnaGreen on May 29, 2016 22:00:50 GMT
Using the book as my source I have no doubt that Hornblower pushed the Captain. You must remember Hornblower is all about success of the mission and victory the Empire. He always plays the odds and he knew that left unchecked the Captain would "destroy" the ship and take the officers with it. This would hurt the country the service and Hornblower's goals. Once Hornblower realized the most likely action to result in success he committed himself completely no matter what the risk. Pushing the Captain was the answer and the best thing he could do at that moment for the Navy and for England. No one else on board would have had. I've been a Hornblower fan for more that 40 years and it's great to know others out there. Welcome and thanks for the comments.
Okay, Assuming he pushed Sawyer, was it the 'moral' thing for him to do? [This question is strictly for the purpose of debate].
Your Aye,
Diane
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Post by QueueMistressMags on May 30, 2016 5:46:11 GMT
Using the book as my source I have no doubt that Hornblower pushed the Captain. You must remember Hornblower is all about success of the mission and victory the Empire. He always plays the odds and he knew that left unchecked the Captain would "destroy" the ship and take the officers with it. This would hurt the country the service and Hornblower's goals. Once Hornblower realized the most likely action to result in success he committed himself completely no matter what the risk. Pushing the Captain was the answer and the best thing he could do at that moment for the Navy and for England. No one else on board would have had. I've been a Hornblower fan for more that 40 years and it's great to know others out there. Yes! Exactly! It's not explicitly said, but the entire plot leads to that answer. (And the plotting is very well done.) In the films, the plotting is different but also equally well done, and in my opinion equally leads to that conclusion. Neither plot really hangs together otherwise--but if one accepts the conclusion that Hornblower pushed Sawyer, in both cases it is brilliantly plotted. With any other conclusion, the authors have not done their job.
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DianeGretnaGreen
Commander
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Gathers Heather for Dr. Syn (alias The Scarecrow)
Posts: 751
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Post by DianeGretnaGreen on Jun 19, 2016 19:46:10 GMT
So, can I stir the pot a little, please?
1st, does all this matter? (Please, not trying to be snarky here.)
2nd, what if some had pushed Pellew?
Last, I do like how Simpson is disposed of in the film. However, what if someone thought of disposing of Simpson the same way? Say...in shark-infested waters?
Just having some fun like the Duchess.
Yours Aye,
Diane
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LizMc
Lieutenant
There is nothing a good pint can't fix
Posts: 452
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Post by LizMc on Jun 19, 2016 20:46:00 GMT
So, can I stir the pot a little, please? 1st, does all this matter? (Please, not trying to be snarky here.) 2nd, what if some had pushed Pellew? Last, I do like how Simpson is disposed of in the film. However, what if someone thought of disposing of Simpson the same way? Sey...in shark-infested waters? Just having some fun like the Duchess. Yours Aye, Diane Re point #1, was he even pushed?
With your second point, you are touching on the whole moral dilemma.....Was it legal to push Sawyer? No. Was it morally right, in that it more than likely saved the ship? Open to debate, as he was mentally unstable and the crew had no other recourse, or did they? Did such a situation exist with Pellew, no, so there couldn't be any justification.
Cheers
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DianeGretnaGreen
Commander
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Gathers Heather for Dr. Syn (alias The Scarecrow)
Posts: 751
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Post by DianeGretnaGreen on Jun 23, 2016 14:59:27 GMT
Hi LizMc
Thanks for your response. Great points. I like where you asked whether he was 'mentally unstable and the crew had no other recourse, or did they?' Pity, no one pushed William Bligh.
It does seem of course everybody liked Pellew, (at least we THINK), so yeah, no justification.
So. what about, LET'S PUSH Simpson.
Yours Aye,
Diane
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Post by shipoftheline on Jun 23, 2016 16:24:12 GMT
So. what about, LET'S PUSH Simpson. YES!!!! And into the water... with a couple of cannon balls tied to his legs first... just to make sure. ;)
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Post by WinterMoon on Jun 23, 2016 20:39:02 GMT
Nah, to be properly sure he sinks, we should tie him to the anchor.
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LizMc
Lieutenant
There is nothing a good pint can't fix
Posts: 452
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Post by LizMc on Jun 23, 2016 22:23:48 GMT
Hi LizMc Thanks for your response. Great points. I like where you asked whether he was 'mentally unstable and the crew had no other recourse, do did they?' Pity, no one pushed William Bligh. It does seem of course everybody liked Pellew, (at least we THINK), so yeah, no justification. So. what about, LET'S PUSH Simpson. Yours Aye, Diane Well, Bunting disliked Pellew, based on his incorrect assumption Pellew and the other senior officers were not also being rationed, and he started trying to stir up mutiny, so if he had tried to do something similar to the pushing of Sawyer (if he was pushed), then it would have been out and out attempted murder and mutiny......it is very hard to draw the line about when it is justified and when it isn't......which is why the RN had the hard and fast rule, you mutiny, you hang......the justification to the William Bligh example is also open to debate.....Fletcher Christian may not have been as noble as he is sometimes portrayed......
Cheers
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Post by Sharpiefan on Jul 17, 2016 16:28:46 GMT
There's also the Hermione mutiny to think about, where the mutiny was justifiable in that the captain pushed his crew to breaking point (mainly because of his complete inconsistency when doling out punishments - one day a drunkard and a deserter got twelve lashes, the next day a deserter got six and a drunkard two dozen, that kind of thing). But the mutineers went way over the top and killed every single officer, including the Marine officer who'd been sick in his bed for weeks, AND carried the ship into a foreign port.
If the crew had managed to contact higher authority, they could have had it looked into and possibly got the captain replaced (which did happen). Even after they'd mutinied, it is entirely possible that it could have been dealt with a lot more leniently than it was, if they'd managed not to go completely overboard and do for everyone.
Justified? Yes. Carried too far? Definitely. The Navy had no choice but to hang every mutineer it came across - it remains, to this day, the worst single-ship mutiny in history.
For more information, you could do far worse than look up the excellent The Black Ship by Dudley Pope, a non-fiction book on the Hermione mutiny and its aftermath.
SF
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Post by cptrachel on Oct 20, 2017 18:42:37 GMT
Hi all,
my first ever post on here, yay!
I was just wondering, as I have regrettably not read much of the Hornblower books, who got the blame in the books in Court for 'pushing' Sawyer? As I am aware Archie is a TV character only.
Cheers!
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Post by shipoftheline on Oct 21, 2017 19:16:21 GMT
Welcome aboard cptrachel!
It has been a while since I've read the books to be honest, but from what I remember, it was not fully resolved in the books either. Although it is heavily suggested that Horatio was the one who did it.
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Post by cptrachel on Oct 22, 2017 19:24:16 GMT
Thank you, shipoftheline! Ahh I see, I have just ordered the Lieutenant Hornblower book so going to have a read into it. I have just started re-watching the entire series again and wish back in the day I had found this forum as I always have so many things I want to discuss (I was obsessed with the Hornblower TV series when I was 10 - now 23) so have never really found anyone else who loves it!
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